Yorkshire Dragons: How One Charity is Using Magic to Unlock Creativity in Kids
Why is creativity such an important thing to foster in young people?
What can brands do to better unlock imagination in kids around the world?
…And on which days are dragons allowed in the shop?
Those are just some of the questions I had for Dr Deborah Bullivant - the founder of kids’ literacy charity Grimm & Co.
In this whimsical reclaimed gothic church in the North of England, the charity is running a series of playful workshops with kids (and teachers!) - all aimed at powering up their imagination and creativity. From magical creatures to discussions about the UK educational system - our conversation covers a lot of ground.
Read on to find out how this Yorkshire charity is challenging the way we should be teaching young people about writing and literacy moving forward…
How Grimm & Co is using magic and dragons (and a bespoke pedagogy) to unlock creativity and imagination in kids
Auger Insights: This morning, I'm having a chat with Dr. Deborah Bullivant, the founding chief executive of Grimm & Co, a Yorkshire-based literacy charity that is kick-starting kids' creativity in fun and quirky ways. Deborah, how are you?
Deborah Bullivant: Hello. I'm really good, thank you. How are you?
AI: I'm very good, thanks. First of all – the big question here is, what is Grimm & Co? What does a child's experience look like when they kind of walk into your doors?
DB: Oh, wow. That's a big question! Grimm & Co is a literacy charity, but you would never know that.
We've created a space called the ‘Emporium of Stories’. When you come through the door of the Emporium of Stories, you go into a magical space where you can throw away all the chaos of your everyday life, leave it all behind and get lost in your imagination. It reignites your imagination. It starts to let you just be playful. It's an invitation to be playful.
Grimm & Co’s ‘Emporium of Stories’ in Rotherham, Yorkshire in the UK
We were created in 1148 by Graham Grimm (just before lunchtime) and he created this as an apothecary to the magical, originally. And he found out that magical beings, you know, they need stories to survive. That's what they thrive on – like we need food and water and sunshine. Magical beings need stories. So he created this back in 1148, and we've kept it going. He's still around, but not many of us have seen him… and you wouldn't want to. So we’ve built this whole story around Graham Grimm, his sister Griselda, and all the rest of the family that are absolutely fabulous beings of all different types.
And we celebrate the magic of the folk tales and fairy tales and magical stories in all sorts of different ways: for instance, there's secret doors everywhere. The secret doors take you through to our chapters and our writers pads where you can relax, but enjoy the joyful discovery of stories in all of their senses.
Now, this is a magical space – and we take this space into different communities. We work with lots of children, specifically focusing on Yorkshire, helping them think about their personal ‘narrative’. We're based in Rotherham, a town that has lots of challenges. Lots of areas of poverty and disadvantage, and lots of children have sort of lost their way in terms of their personal narrative: especially in towns like this, many kids have developed more of a negative narrative or perspective, and there's often a cyclical narrative going on within their families, like, you know, they don't like education or education is not for them… there's lots of different things.
We're about building a positive narrative for every child, so leaving no child behind. We help children to find a narrative for themselves that is positive using literacy approaches, using writing as a tool, using reading, using stories. And it's all about finding your place, making meaning of the world around you and building your positive narrative and your own positive story because really that's all we are, isn't it? You and me, we're just stories. That's what we leave behind. It's who we are. It's how we thrive.
AI: I love the idea that we're just a collection of stories at the end of the day. And your approach, this is all based on the 826 Valencia model, is that right?
DB: Yeah, it definitely inspired us. Ours is based on our body of research and the research told us what needed to happen. There was a project that took place and it was to see what would help children's literacy. And we were looking at literacy totally as the tests that they take at primary school and how we could change the children's literacy tests and assessments. And what I did was focus in on the most disadvantaged areas, the 10% most marginalized areas of the town. This whole body of research took place and had some phenomenal outcomes because it was all about creativity. And I was able to commission a hell of a lot of activities that were all very creative approaches.
The research then informed a signature pedagogy, which is the way that we work with children and young people to develop something in particular, some learning process. And there was a great one that came out of this with some significant results that were unprecedented in terms of children's literacy. So that's where I started to think: “OK, that research has happened now. How do we make this happen for the town?”
I started to work with communities to turn this into a model. And that's when I saw the TED Talk by Dave Eggers, who's now visited us. That TED Talk was amazing. And I saw this model that was perfect and aligned beautifully with us. So I made contact with them. We were definitely inspired by that model, but we were already on a path to create this, which is really exciting that we could align. Now we're part of a bigger family, which is fantastic. The 826 family is an international family, which is great.
AI: So you saw this body of research, looked at it and felt, how can we implement this? It aligned with what you saw from Eggers’ TED Talk. And this was the birth of Grimm & Co. So why is this such an important thing? This focus on writing, on creativity – why is that such an important thing to be fostering in kids, do you think?
DB: Writing's everywhere, just behind you on your walls. Writing's everywhere, everywhere. Look around me. There's no way of escaping writing. It's the way we use coding to write, don't we? I mean, we develop coding so that we could communicate in different ways. It's a communication tool. If you don't have that communication tool, you're disadvantaged. If you don't do it well, you're disadvantaged. And if you can't make meaning of it in your way, then you're even more disadvantaged. So writing is everywhere, so we need to use it.
And lots of children in schools are really switched off by writing. At the moment, the curriculum in the UK is very prescribed. It's a technical curriculum, especially in the terms of English and language. And it's very much about learning how to label parts of the curriculum. Schools struggle with getting the creativity out of the children when they're doing this technically-based curriculum. So that's one reason why this is needed more than it's ever been needed: to stimulate that creativity.
It's okay if you've got children in an affluent area who have lots of experiences in their lives. They go to the theatre, they go all over the place in their home lives. And they have all that to draw on, and they already engage in lots of creative stuff. And that's great, but there's lots of children who don't have that creative access, for lots of reasons. So their only experience of development and learning and creativity is in schools, and they're now getting this technical-based curriculum that's all about technically taking the language to pieces and then reconstructing it with labels so you know how to reconstruct it. But without the creativity that underpins all of that – that really important, creative side where your imagination is sparked, where you think differently to what you're given – we're limiting ourselves completely. And lots of children and young people are really switched off by that.
If I said to you now, right, I want you to write a paragraph. You've got to fit in some fronted adverbials. I want to see at least three. Make sure your punctuation and grammar is all correct. How inspired do you feel to sit and write a creative piece, a paragraph that's creative? And also, if you don't go many places, you don't see many things – maybe you go to a mall or shops, but how much more than that? What do you draw on? You draw on things you've seen on the television already. So there's nothing unique. There's nothing coming out of your own mind. You're not being creative. So we're dampening that creativity down, and it's never been needed more than it's needed right now. So that's one reason this is so important, but there's so many.
Another quick one is that stories are a way that we can engage. We all engage with stories in most of our minutes of every day. If you think about it, stories are everywhere. So using writing in a positive way, where you can just be free to write. Some of the greatest writers that I talk to, they talk about writing journals and observing – observing their world. And that's what they draw on to write. If we did that more, imagine how much more equipped we are to deal with that world – let alone using it for writing for others and entertainment purposes, let alone ourselves. So there's many, many, many reasons this is important. It's multilayered.
AI: How does Grimm & Co start to perhaps combat some of these problems around creativity and bring some of the richness of life you’re talking about into these kids' lives? How do you do that?
DB: We've got a signature pedagogy that we've created on the basis of the whole piece of research that took place. And we keep building on that and developing our practice more and more. So we evaluate all the time. We read wider research all the time to see how we're reflecting on that. There's a whole lot of work going on around what we do to make sure that we're current, that it's correct, it's appropriate, everything's right.
Our signature pedagogy has things like giving child agency. A lot of the stuff that's going on within schools at the moment is that teachers are feeling under pressure for results. So often children are being led to a place rather than being able to find that place. So getting them to think for themselves and giving them ownership of something is really important. So when you're on a journey, you give an ownership of that. That's just one part of our pedagogy.
Young people enjoying the showcase of their work - Grimm & co
There's always a product as well at the end of it. If you look at our website, you'll see on the showcase page, you'll see lots of examples of ways that we produce the work. It gives the children a reason to write. We find this with a lot of boys, particularly. They'll say: “Well, why am I doing this? What's the purpose of it?” If they're wanting to write, you know, somebody's asking them to do some writing, like in a school, in a classroom. They don't choose to. They wouldn't choose to sit and write, a lot of boys. But when you give them a purpose, a reason to do it – if there's a product coming at the end of this and it will be showcased and there'll be an audience for it – there's a real purpose. So we always, always turn it into an outcome.
We've got other things on our showcase page, like a gala where Olivia Colman and Gary Oldman – both Oscar winning actors – performed the poems that our children wrote and were part of this online gala that we created at the beginning of lockdown. They took it really seriously. They were so amazing! That's just one example. We've also done plays, and we've done books, of course, many books.
It's all about the young people deciding how it's going to go and what they're going to produce by the end of it. And we negotiate all that together and then we produce it beautifully. And then the big thing is watching an audience experience that writing that you produce from your head. Nobody else did that. And that is life-changing.
AI: In Eggers’ TED talk, he spoke a bit about the diminishment of children's creativity and children's imagination and how that is something of a pandemic in the school system, where – as you've kind of spoken about before – there's this idea that “You're just a kid. I'm going to kind of push you down a bit.” And it feels like you're doing the opposite here, you're really elevating kids and their ideas. And that's what I love about Grimm & Co and this model, a bit more widely, is that it is respecting kids' ideas as something worth celebrating to begin with.
DB: It's about encouraging this right across the board. Dave Eggers did talk about it, yeah, and it's absolutely right. In all of my experience and all of the research I've ever done – and I've got a background in education – it's worse now than I've ever known it, in terms of how we're knocking creativity out of people. And, really, it's not rocket science. It's an easy thing to do to bring it back. But in the pressured environment of schools, it's definitely not something that teachers feel able to bring into their practice.
So we're doing a lot with teachers as well to give them the creative courage to bring this into their curriculum. We're doing a lot with families as well. So not just directly with children, but also the enablers who work around them to support them to be able to do more of this approach.
I had a visit from China, a province in China, and they came over specifically to have a look at what we were doing. And – this was soul destroying – they were saying that in the UK, you create the creators, you create the designers, you create the thinkers, and it must be to do with your schooling. And for me, inside, I'm thinking “this is soul destroying”, because we did - but now no longer. In China, they were looking outwards to see how to bring this creativity in, to do more of it, because they were saying to me, we produce people that can make, can do on the basis of instruction. You produce people who think new thoughts from the start. And how soul destroying to know that we are knocking that right out of the humans we are…
AI: You speak a bit about the pedagogical – the educational – barriers that might be stopping creativity in the classroom. Another thing that might be stopping this expression is a bit more internal. You talk about shyness on your website and how that is something you have to deal with.
As a market researcher working with kids, I often have to deal with shyness as well. It's interesting reading your thoughts on your website, because it sounds like most times, if not all times, you manage to pull things out of these kids at the end and get them engaging. And they all look like they're having a great time! What do you do to connect with a kid who is, perhaps, a bit more shy? Who's a bit less willing to share their creativity from the get-go?
DB: It's complex. No one child has their shyness the same as another child – every child is individual. So you need to think of that the whole time, that every child is an individual. There are no one-size-fits-all rule. And every reason behind that shyness will belong to that child's experiences and what's made that happen for that child. So for us, the joy of what we do – the belief in what we do – is really key.
Young people involved in a Grimm & Co activity on the streets of Rotherham
So right at the start – when I was saying to you about how the Emporium was created in 1148 by Graham Grimm – we actually believe it. We are playful. We are in the game and we're in the story. So we're inviting them to be playful too. We're starting everything from a level playing field. Whatever you come with, it doesn't really matter. It's where you start from and it starts from your imagination. It's about kick-starting that.
It's also celebrating the founts of knowledge that you've created in your own life: whatever your experience is, whatever your community is around you, and whatever you're living with in your home. Those founts of knowledge that you've learned as a child to get you through your day are valuable and important. Those sources, your communication skills, and your coping strategies are really important. So we celebrate that and we encourage hearing about that. We want to know about some of those strategies that children have.
An example is when we do a story-making workshop for schools. A class will arrive with their teachers and classroom assistants, then they go through our secret door into our Emporium and they are told all about Graham – and Griselda, his sister – and how he created this and what happens. They go into this room and they hear from Graham. They don't know who he is, they've never met Graham. But suddenly you'll hear Graham or Griselda and they'll be saying: “Who have you got there?” And you just hear them above you. And whoever's facilitating on that day will be like “Oh, we've got a school from…”, you know, and say which school it is. Then Graham or Griselda will often say (it's disgusting), but they'll say: “Well, they can't make stories! I don't want them there!” So then, of course, there's a provocation. The kids are like, “Yes, we can! Of course, we can make stories!” “Well, I need 30 stories by lunchtime. Let's see if you can do that one.” Well, then the kids have got the provocation. They're on it.
The way that it's facilitated in the pedagogy is about listening to and encouraging and valuing every single contribution within the room. We've got mentors. Our volunteers are our lifeblood and they are amongst the children, supporting them, embracing their thoughts and getting their thoughts out of them, so they can share to us and the child doesn't immediately have to be the one putting their hand up. The mentor will do it because they're discussing it in small chats and they're saying “So and so here, Ben here, he said this. It's a great idea.” They start to grow immediately.
By the time they've done that, putting their hands up, they're saying, “I've got a really good idea”. They're putting things forward when they are chosen by the other kids as the character that they want to make the best story. You start to see this growth and it goes on and on and on. By the end of it, we also know which children in that class have the greatest challenges. We know before they arrive, because we've done lots of pre-stuff: miraculously, their names get taken out of a hat to read the final gathered story at the end. And it's up to them if they're happy to read it or they can bring someone along to help them.
I've seen other children give them a standing ovation. I've seen teachers in tears because they've never seen these children perform in this way. They've never seen them read aloud. They've refused to do it. We've seen lots of practice that is phenomenal happening where children are doing – for the first time – things they've never done before. And by the end of this session, they write their ending in their book. It's being illustrated by an illustrator in front of them so they can see it all come into life. There's a reason: it’s being scribed beautifully and then it's all done into a book. They get their book. They're the author of that book. Their own individual ending is in that book. It's published. It's bound. It's in their hands before they leave the building.
And people think you can't change lives in a morning. Well, we do.
AI: It sounds like you've created such a strong incubator of creativity in this one space. If you can go from not being willing to share thoughts at the beginning to being proud of a book they've written, you know, by the end of a morning – that's incredibly powerful stuff!
If you look back at the years you've been doing this – and the lessons you’ve learnt – one of your core tenants is learn from what we've done. What do you think other brands who aren't perhaps in the same educational space or who just kind of deal with kids tangentially can learn from this? Maybe it's product development, maybe it's experiences. What do you think they should be learning from you all at Grimm & Co when it comes to engaging with kids and really sparking that creativity that you talk about so much?
DB: Put yourself in their shoes. When we do teacher workshops where we've got the teachers to do an exercise that they're asking their children to do. Would this be something you'd want to do? Would this be something that you would bring out the best creativity in you? That's number one. Always value what the children bring. Whatever it is, they've got something to contribute. Find it, celebrate it, search for it and search for children as individuals, not as just a group of children. They're individual people who have all got the potential to be something spectacular and one day could well be. You're part of that vehicle to get them there. Don't forget it for a second and find what it is that they can celebrate. What is their thing? And then develop that with them and help them to see that.
Unleash their imagination so that they can imagine a better narrative for themselves because a lot of children can't see beyond what they're given and have lost –already by the age of seven – the real ability to imagine something different from what they already know. So do that. Give them experiences to draw on. Somebody once said to me – because I interviewed a group of teachers and I said to them, what's the biggest barrier? – and they said, children don't have experience to draw on anymore. They don't go anywhere. They don't do anything in these communities that we work in.
And somebody had said to me, the Brontës didn't have experiences to draw on either, did they? But they drew on those experiences they got and then they read. And by practicing that reading so well, they were able to practice their imaginations and take their imaginations off to all sorts of places. So encouraging reading, but specifically the joy of reading. Try and get that happening in some way, not a five-minute, at the end of a day, let’s squeeze this in sort of way, but really celebrating reading as a tool to develop your imagination. To build empathy for a character - find a character that the children can find some empathy in.
And there's many, many, many, many other things I could tell you here. And we've got lots of these in our practice that we use in our development programs that we offer to adults. But there's many, many ways that you can do lots of this stuff we’re talking about here.
AI: I like how this conversation started with the importance of kind of literacy and reading, and we've really brought it back kind of at the end, I think, to the importance of the written word and how it can unlock richness and in young people's lives. The last question for me really is just learning a bit more about what's happening with Grimm & Co. What's what's next for you all? I know you're moving or you have moved location, is that right?
DB: Yeah, we're right in the middle of moving. We've taken on a big old gothic, beautiful church that was the hub of this community in Rotherham town center for many years. But it needed a lot to do into it, a hell of a lot to do into it. It's a grade two list of building and it's really gorgeous heritage wise. But it's also got this background of being a community hub as a church, but it had a dwindling congregation of five. They were selling it and there was a carpet company interested. I'm sure they'd have done a great job with it, but we wanted it to be a community place. Again, we found some funding from Arts Council England, and thankfully they gave us a grant that allowed us to buy the building. So to cut it short, we've had many more pieces of funding from a variety of sources.
We've had lots of support from our local authority, and we've got an amazing space now. We've also got Lumsden Design, who are the Harry Potter Studios designers. They're doing our fit out. So we're now on fit out and we've moved in. We're in the back of house and we're creating the Feastery Cafe that I was talking about earlier. The apothecary to the magical will be there too.
Grimm & Co’s Feastery
So you'll be able to come and buy your goods if you're a witch or a wizard or a troll. And we've got rooftop parking if you bring in your broomstick, and dragons – we have certain days when dragons are allowed in because they cause chaos with the fire breathing that they do. But yeah, everybody's welcome. Everybody is welcome, even if you are mortal, you know, humans can come to.
And there's lots for everyone to do. There'll be lots of activities. In our previous place it was much smaller and it didn't allow us to do as much as we need to do. This new space will give us four times the space that that old space gave us. It's also much more beautiful. It's going to be stunning. It’s a destination. Come and have something to eat and do an activity. We're going to have all sorts of activities going on. It doubles up as a theatre. And behind the secret door, there's also a beanstalk that humans, I think, call a slide? That's behind the secret doors. And that's where the charity work goes on. All of the front of house stuff supports the charity work that goes on behind the the secret doors.
AI: Well, you had me at Beanstalk slide, I think. But also, dragon-only days and rooftop parking for your brooms. It sounds absolutely incredible. Deborah, thank you so much for talking to me today. It's been a it's been a real treat. It's been a lot of fun. So thank you very much.
DB: No, thank you!
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